Works from the Collection of Francis Pound and Sue Crockford

A visit to New York in the early 1980’s was the catalyst for Sue Crockford to open her ground-breaking gallery. From 1985 to 2013, she represented many of New Zealand’s modernist heavyweights, including Ralph Hotere, Gordon Walters and Milan Mrkusich. Later, her gallery would become the venue for exciting contemporary exhibitions by Julian Dashper, John Reynolds, Peter Robinson and Yuk King Tan. Sue Crockford Gallery was also the go to location for art fans to see major international artists in New Zealand with shows by Daniel Buren, Pae White, Christian Jankowski, and DJ Simpson. In 2013, Sue spoke with Hamish Coney for Art+Object’s in-house magazine Content about her inspiration, her personal philosophy and the artists with whom she worked.

Let’s start at the beginning. Tell us about your early art education.
I went to Tauranga Girls High School. The teacher Claudia Jarman was very good. One day a woman came to speak to the sixth form about Ardmore Teachers College in the most amazing way. I was the first person to sign up… straight off. They were experimenting with art education and how that can help children, so I left school at sixteen.

To go to teachers training college at Ardmore?
Yes. I majored in art education. Bob Ellis, Marilyn Webb and Ralph Hotere were art advisors, guiding teachers on running a good art programme in primary schools. It was a really good time. I did my two years training specialising in art, then I immediately got a job as an art teacher in Tauranga for a year before returning to Auckland. Murray Gilbert took me into the Art Advisory Services of the Education Department so I could carry on with what Ralph and Marilyn had been doing, as they had left by this time. So, pretty quickly I was involved in art education.

So you were training teachers?
I really loved it. I drove all over the place and met a lot of people in Auckland. But I hadn’t had any rest, so to speak, from school up to this point. Then I decided to leave altogether and spread my wings a bit. I became a model which paid quite well. I had a really good time for several years. Then Murray Gilbert said the Art Advisory Service needed someone, I think Marilyn Webb was going to Dunedin for the Frances Hodgkins Fellowship for a year and they needed someone to help in the art education programme being trialled in primary schools. So I said I’d stay for a year, but I stayed for much longer. I enjoyed it immensely. It was also a period of protesting, whether it was nuclear free or the Springbok Tour. It was a very active period politically.

Let’s look at the period before you started Sue Crockford Gallery. What was the art scene like at that time?
I met Francis (Dr. Francis Pound, author, art historian). Francis and I decided to go to New York. We both had a complete love of art and we were both driven by it. We got married without telling anyone and we got on a plane to New York.

That was your honeymoon?
Yes, it was a brilliant time to go as there was so much going on over there.

So when was this… early 1980s?
Early 80s. Dick Frizzell had some friends who loved New Zealanders and we stayed with them. There was so much happening. We saw Laurie Anderson in concert twice, she was brilliant.

One of the first musicians to engage with multi-media and music?
She made a huge impression on me.

What was the New York art scene like?
It was the beginning of the big galleries. The whole thing was very new and exciting, a real buzz. The galleries were expanding. It was the beginning of a more professional scene.

Are there any artists or exhibitions that you remember from this trip?
Yes, it was a time when a lot of new people were coming into the art scene and some of them were really wild. We saw Jean Michel Basquiat’s first show (1982 at Annina Mosei Gallery). I think Mary Boone picked him up shortly after that. We saw Sherrie Levine, Cindy Sherman, Jenny Holzer, Barbara Bloom, Ross Bleckner, Robert Longo, Barbara Kruger, Allan McCollum, and many others. But Anderson was the biggest thing for me, and somehow inspired me to open a gallery.

Unlike anything in New Zealand? At that time there was only a handful of galleries in Auckland. RKS and Denis Cohn?
Yes, but they had done a sterling job getting the whole thing going.

So this trip was the catalyst for you to start your own gallery in 1985?
I decided to open a gallery once we got back. I knew Gretchen Albrecht and she was very enthusiastic. So once I had one artist I was able to get a few more like Denys Watkins, Richard Killeen and Jacqueline Fraser. Oh, I also had a baby in the middle of this (daughter Veronica). I rented a space in Albert Street. The very last building to be left standing before Chase destroyed the whole of our city. Judy Millar was downstairs with her restaurant Five Columns. I opened on a Saturday with a group show, tons of people came. Then the building got completely pulled down, it was very sad we had a great feeling going on.
The patrons of the Auckland Art Gallery which had just been formed came to those early shows and were great supporters.

Did you represent Ralph Hotere at this time?
No, he was with Rodney Kirk-Smith and was very loyal. Rodney died in 1996 and Ralph joined me after that.

Let’s talk about the art scene in the mid 80s. There were less than half a dozen galleries. There was Art New Zealand magazine which had been running for about ten years.
I came in with the American model. A representative gallery: the people that showed with you stayed with you. Previously it was a bit more free and artists moved about more.

Is there an early show that really stands out?
Yes. Daniel Buren (in 1990 Buren was named as a Living Treasure as part of the 1990 150th centenary celebrations). He made a beautiful work on one of the big sheds on the Wellington waterfront.

He would not have been a well known artist in New Zealand at this time. Daniel Buren at Sue Crockford Gallery. That would have been one of the first exhibitions by a major international artist in a dealer gallery.
Yes and no one really had any idea what it was about. However, Alan and Jenny Gibbs were very interested in his work. Alan Gibbs later commissioned a major Buren installation for his farm — one of Buren’s biggest installations — a striped fenceline all over the property. Most collectors in New Zealand at this time were more focussed on New Zealand artists.

Before the internet how did you go about marketing?
You really had to hope that someone would review you in the newspaper, which they did thankfully and what I was doing was such an obvious change. I also had lots of relationships from the education days. Many of my artists were shown in public galleries, in the Sydney Biennale, in Art New Zealand and elsewhere.

So word of mouth was very important?
Yes. I had seen how things should be run in New York, which was a huge advantage for me.

Were Australian collectors interested in New Zealand art in this period?
There was one who was very important – Anne Lewis (1). But generally there was not much interest.

You have mentioned the New York model…
I wanted a straightforward way of operating. In a way, quite rigid. We worked to a four week schedule. The artists stayed with you. They signified what the gallery was.

You mentioned the role of the Auckland Art Gallery patrons?
The patrons became quite active at this time. They made more things happen, quite a catalyst for the scene at the time.

Let’s talk about the 80’s in Auckland.
It was a very stimulating moment. The Gibbs founded the patrons and this sparked a rise in collecting. It felt quite new and exciting.

One of the landmark events of the early 1990’s was Headlands (2) was this a pivotal event?
It was, but it was complicated by the effect on Gordon Walters. It was not handled very well. It was really contentious, he felt ostracised.

This was the appropriation debate? Pākehā artists engaging with Māori imagery?
It was serious. The appropriation issue came up around Gordon Walters and he was stunned. I felt like the whole thing got out of control. I managed to take him in the end (to Sydney) but he was deeply shocked. His wife Margaret was a major scholar and translator of ancient Māori and he had spent a large part of his life studying Māori art here and in European museums.

His engagement around Māori form making goes right back to the early 1950s, even earlier. Did he feel that his conscientious research had been ignored or did he feel that he had made an error?
Gordon was in awe of Māori culture. It was hugely important to him, all the fuss was sickening to him and very upsetting. It came right in the end but I think it really affected him.

It is fair to say that this art issue ballooned into the wider culture?
I think that the Australian curators were quite taken aback by the moves to effectively have Gordon’s work removed. It almost became a nightmare.

People are always interested in the relationship between the dealer and their artists. Can you tell us about your philosophy in managing your relationships with artists.
I found it really quite simple. My job is to organise spaces and times. The artists could do what they liked. I was working with them because I thought they were fantastic, so it was a just a matter of them doing what they wanted to do.

In the late 1990’s New Zealand started to spread its wings and reach out to the wider world. This is when New Zealand began thinking about the Venice Biennale and the Walters Prize. Can you talk about this new phase of change?
One of the great things that happened is that Anne Lewis took New Zealand on board. She was instrumental in suggesting that New Zealand could be in the Venice Biennale. She loved what we were doing here and could see that New Zealand had a tiny but lively scene. I met her at the Venice Biennale in the late 1990’s and she was immensely interested. Anne came to New Zealand and her relationship with Jenny (Gibbs) flourished into a fantastic combination.

What do you think the effect of NZ participation at Venice has been on artists here?
I think it has been really important. We can have shows here all the time and know we have good artists. But if no one knows out there then you are not going to get any further. You just have to look outside yourself. At the time we were ready to show the world how professional we were.

Then we have had the effect of the Walters Prize (founded in 2002).
Jenny (Gibbs) was hugely instrumental in this. It was going to be world class which it has been. The whole idea was to move things up a notch or two, become a bit more international, by getting major international figures as judges.

What do you think Gordon Walters would think of this award being named after him?
He was a very shy person; I think he’d be thrilled and also a bit astonished.

If we look at 2013 we now have a scene where many artists, including those you have represented now have opportunities that did not exist previously. What is your take on the art scene today?
Peter Robinson is a fantastic example. I think it has been amazing. Every step of the way there have been new things happening. But I think you have to have patrons. In a country like ours it always falls onto the same people to come up with the money. In the last few years I think more people are thinking of getting involved.

You have represented at least two generations of artists. If we look at an artist such as John Reynolds you have represented him for his whole career.
Yes, I can remember meeting John Reynolds. He ran a café (John’s Diner), he was so captivating, full of beans. He showed me some of his work and I told him that I was starting a gallery. He said ‘yes’ from the beginning. it only took five minutes! John was part of the new professional gallery and artist model. I wanted the artists to realise that there was a lot going on overseas and we were just as good. That may sound a bit naive, but we have great artists.

What was it like watching your foundation artists flourish?
The artists just go for it! They became really involved in the studio practice and then the patrons came along. The whole thing was very exciting and new.

Can we talk a bit about Julian Dashper. He is revered by younger artists. Sadly, he passed away recently. Can you tell us your view on his contribution to New Zealand art?
Absolutely. Julian was just the most marvellous artist to deal with. He was very involved and always talked to younger artists. His work was quite extreme at the time and some people found this quite difficult but he loved to talk to these people and explain his work and thinking. The drumskins for example, I thought were fantastic. I have to talk about Rob Gardiner at this juncture. As a collector Rob was amazing, he saw every show and really focussed on the work. He could take anything on board and at the beginning he was one of the few to really understand those artists like Julian.

In the last few years you have represented a new generation of artists such as Richard Maloy, Mladen Bizumic and Daniel Malone. Can you tell us your view of their practice? How do you work with these younger artists?
You know one of the things is that it can be a little intimidating for a young artist to go into a gallery with an established roster. They have to have a lot of confidence. I like to see them showing in another environment. Some of my established artists mention that they have seen a particular young artist — often as their teacher — and have been impressed. I think this is a very common way of dealers hearing about an artist – a dealer needs to have good ears as well as a good eye.

Do you think it is essential to go to art school to have a career?
I think it is a very good idea. It is quite cut-throat now and I think you almost have to have that as a background. Art history is also important; you have to know what has happened. Peter Robinson does and John Reynolds does, Dashper did, not to mention Walters or McCahon.

Final question. 28 years is a pretty good innings. You’ve been a significant player in the visual arts culture of New Zealand. Tell us about your experience as a gallerist?
To introduce a new way of showing and dealing right from the beginning was hugely exciting. I think the artists knew that the gallery was the real deal. Latterly they knew that the people overseas were watching and they really pulled out the stops. I felt that they did it for themselves and they did it for the gallery.

1 Anne Lewis AO is a leading Australian collector, patron and philanthropist. In 2009 she donated 54 works from her collection to the MCA in Sydney. She was the director of the influential Gallery A from 1964 to 1983 and a foundation member of the Visual Arts Board, Australia Council as well as being a member of the International Council of the Museum of Modern Art, New York.

2 Headlands: Thinking Through New Zealand Art. Sydney, Museum of Contemporary Art, 1992.

This interview was originally published as “An Audience with Sue Crockford” in Content. Issue 1, 2013, pp32–34.